In this episode of WP Minute+, Matt interviews Angela Jin, the Head of Programs and Contributor Experience at Automattic.

They discuss Angela’s work overseeing community training and events like WordCamps. Angela shares her perspective on making WordPress thrive, not just as a CMS but also as an open source community.

They talk about bringing younger generations into the WordPress world through education initiatives and pathways for contribution. Matt and Angela also discuss some of the challenges facing the community events, including rising costs and the increasing need for official roles like an incident response team.

Here are some key takeaways:

  • Insight into Automattic’s vision for helping hosts and supporting the WordPress open source community
  • Ideas for how to attract younger generations to learn and engage with WordPress
  • Perspective on the rising operational complexity of running community events and governing a large open source project
  • Commentary on gracefully handling conflict and disagreement within an open community like WordPress


Matt: [00:00:00] It’s the WP Minute Plus, your home for long form discussions with WordPress professionals and industry experts, covering our favorite topic, WordPress. Be sure to follow us, search for WP Minute in your favorite podcast app, follow this podcast and our five minute weekly edition, or head to the WPMinute.

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Hey, Angela, welcome to the program. Hey, Matt. Thank you so much for having me. I was doing a search on the WP minute. com before we kick things off. We’ve referenced a lot of your work before. Uh, this is the first time, uh, that you and I have, uh, chatted. So I super appreciate the time there is. I mean, there’s so many moving parts to, to WordPress.[00:02:00] 

I want to get into like the community side, your involvement on that, and where folks can go when, I don’t know, they need to look things up. They need to find maybe like a north star for the community side of WordPress, stuff that maybe we’re not always talking about on Twitter. Uh, but before we get to that point.

Angela, who are you and what do you do at Automattic? 

Angela: So I am the Head of Programs and Contributor Experience in Automattic’s Sponsored Division. There’s about a hundred of us that work full time on the open source community. Um, and so my role there is. Uh, I work with a number of really great teams overseeing our, our programs.

So specifically, uh, community training and, uh, five for the future in particular. Yeah. Those are kind of my broad areas. 

Matt: Are you a help the host card holder? 

Angela: Yes, very much so. [00:03:00] 

Matt: Uh, I just interviewed, uh, the CEO of pressable. Uh, and we were talking about that and it’s kind of funny to, to hear the dynamics. He is certainly help pressable.

He’s holding that card. Uh, but, uh, it was kind of funny to, to hear him break it down and, and, and see this new initiative. Why, just, you know, as an aside, we didn’t talk about this in the green room before we hit record. What, what’s the, uh, what’s the goal for this? I know Matt made a quick post before you left on this.

on. Uh, I can understand that hosting is very important in the WordPress space. Is there a other underlining goal or do you see this as a, as in a different way of how this helps WordPress thrive as a whole? It’s a good question. 

Angela: I, Matt outlined it pretty clearly in his post. I think the, the goal is to, to get clarity around, um, the kind of the different areas where automaticians.

Play. And so, yes, for our sponsor division, we are very much help the host. We are, [00:04:00] uh, we love all WordPress, uh, equally, and we want to help everybody succeed with WordPress, um, and we are working against proprietary software, um, in the hopes that we, we can. Yeah. 

Matt: It goes to show how important hosting is to maybe the common folks that don’t even, you know, we’re in this space.

There’s the like the 1 percent of the 1 percent I don’t mean that in like a pop culture kind of way, but there’s only so many people who really care about the moving parts of WordPress and like how this community is. Put together how the software is put together and largely for our end users out there and our customers.

It just goes to show. Yeah, hosting is a very important space. Um, I don’t want to just like get WordPress going for the end user, but Yeah. These hosts, how are they contributing back? How are they actually helping that experience to help WordPress thrive and all of that stuff? A lot of moving parts, a lot of moving parts.

One of the things that I’m holding near and dear to my heart this year, [00:05:00] 2024 is just a short phrase, a small phrase that Josefa mentioned in the state of the word at the end of 2023. And that’s looking at WordPress thriving. There’s no direct. question here for you, but I’m curious on your take on how we can all make WordPress thrive or how can we enhance the thrive enos?

That’s not a phrase. How can we, how can we make WordPress thrive in your eyes and what are the important pockets to you in order to accomplish that longterm goal for WordPress? 

Angela: It’s a very, very big question. Um, and yeah, I really loved what Giuseppe said there around how we can make WordPress thrive, not just as a CMS, but also as a community as well.

Um, Giuseppe had shared, I think it was, At the beginning of this year, a post around some big picture things for 2024, [00:06:00] where she highlighted there were two areas in particular that we, that we all should be focusing on one of which is that our events are we want to diversify them. We want to bring them back.

We want to help people connect around WordPress. Um, and then the other is that our growth is stagnating. And when you are this large, it is really hard to keep going. But it is something that we all should be keeping an eye on, um, and think about what we what we can do to both keep and increase our market share.

Matt: And that’s from a technical, I mean, I know I’ve read so many articles and, and have published so much about this stuff, but when you look at the growth stagnating, we’re talking technical term installs of WordPress or is, okay. What about the community side? Do you have any vision on that? And is that growing in terms of like participation, increased events, increased attendance, but then maybe, maybe the ratio is off a bit.

What’s your take on that? [00:07:00] 

Angela: Uh, so much so, um, WordPress is more than the software. It is a huge community, um, that we would not be the same without. And so when I think about a thriving community, um, I look at what are, what are the things that we are doing here together? Are we aligned in where we are going?

And are there, are we, are we happy doing it? Are there people coming in, uh, doing what they want to be able to do to move us forward, move us all forward? And, uh, do they feel like they are, they are welcome in this space? Um, community building is very much about, um, seeing. Being together with people and seeing where we, where we belong.

And so that’s, uh, that’s a very important facet for me. Um, I do think that in recent years, uh, we have had a huge increase in work camps and meetups that I’m thinking from, uh, the pandemic years [00:08:00] where we had. Nothing, but we have had significant growth in the last year we had, I want to say at least 70 WordPress events, which I believe we were looking at like 116 percent growth as compared to the year prior.

So there’s a desire to come together. There’s a desire to connect. And at a lot of those events, um, we do see new people coming in and wanting to contribute. Now, contribution has, uh, become a more challenging space, I would say. And this is not, this is true, not just for us, but also for, uh, volunteer communities as a whole.

And so that’s very much something that I’m, I’m keeping an eye on as to, and I know I’m not the only one, um, as to how we can, uh, make that more, um, how we can help bring people in, how we can make those opportunities available, how we can [00:09:00] make it clear what opportunities and pathways people can take. And in a project as large as WordPress, that’s, 


Matt: a big challenge.

Yeah. I mean, I certainly want like the backdrop for all of this stuff. For those who are listening, who might have been like me when I got into this space, 18, 15, 18 years ago, whatever it’s been. Like, you just want, why, why doesn’t this move faster? You know, why, why can’t we do this? Why can’t we do that?

And it’s the same problem we all have, right? Time, resources, people in the seats to do the work. Like, this is not a fast moving ship. And I think the particular challenge, like, if you were to, if you were to compare, let’s say, and don’t forget, we’re talking. Wordpress. org. We’re not talking like Wordpress.

com or a commercial piece of software here. We’re talking about open source, community, largely volunteer led. And when you compare this to, I don’t know, like if you were to say Wix or Weebly or whatever, name [00:10:00] any other CMS, a lot of that stuff is like product. Hey, we got this new feature, we got these new products and we’re going to focus these events around this new launch or our new version 2.

0, like none of this stuff is tied so closely to WordPress. In other words, we can’t just make WordPress better for the excitement side of things and like. Hold events for that just doesn’t work, uh, you know, because it’s just not, that’s not what this foundation is literally and figuratively. So it’s not an easy task.

So I do applaud you and like everybody else who, who has to do this stuff. Do you have thoughts on getting people having said all of that? Do you, and I’ve seen this too, like, Hey, You know, a lot of us that have been in the space, you know, we’re, we’re all getting older. We’re all kind of like aging out of the, out of the internet.

I just wrote a piece about, you know, contributing to, to WordPress. My contributions are just content, media, interaction, networking, stuff like that. But I don’t do tick tock. I can’t do that. [00:11:00] I’m like a long form blog and audio and video guy. Like tick tock is not even. in my vision. A whole different world.

A whole different world. Do you have ways that do you evaluate ways to like bring in younger folks to get excited about WordPress and contribute in any way aside from writing code? 

Angela: There are, and I’ve heard this in lots of different pockets across the WordPress community, there’s a strong desire to bring WordPress education to To schools, to universities, to technical colleges, um, because there is so much to learn here.

And I’m a very firm believer that education is the future. And so if we are able to help, uh, help the younger generation learn how to use WordPress, learn the benefits of open source and why it is so important to own your own content instead of putting everything on TikTok, that’s a big win for us. And so I know the, [00:12:00] uh, the training team has interest in that the community team, um, I’ve seen events around the world that, uh, help younger, younger students, um, get online with their first website with WordPress, things 

Matt: like that.

I think there’s also a strong, um, opportunity for, which is goes right against what I was just asking about getting younger people in. But I think there’s, I think back to education, back to opportunity and WordPress reason why I love it is because somebody. Who is out of a career, out of a job, and not in tech, like.

Maybe blue collar work and they’re looking for something else. They’re looking for something new and tech air quotes tech to them is so distant so far. I could never do this tech thing, but then you put WordPress in front of them with all of its faults and wrinkles and you kind of learn it and then you start building a page, which then turns into building a website, which then turns into building a website for.

for friends and colleagues. And before you know it, you’re getting paid a few [00:13:00] thousand dollars to do this thing. You’ve got this new side gig or this new career and tech is not so distant anymore. And guess what? You didn’t write code. You just put blocks and patterns together and you just did something really great for another organization or a brand.

And that’s where I really love the opportunity in WordPress and something I still see. underserved in the market is is educating people to enable that and not just make money online kind of thing, right? Like, here’s how you can learn WordPress to be an editor, a writer, a publisher, a website designer, a curator, right?

An e commerce person, you can do all this stuff. And I think that Part of the market is really underserved, probably because it’s hard, more grassroots, more local driven. And that’s maybe something that is a barrier to, to that sort of chapter of WordPress. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. I read one of another posts that I made recently, uh, in a prediction of WordPress is, is again, sort of along these lines that there’s a, a new.

Uh, customer avatar coming [00:14:00] into the WordPress community, those that now that we’re so old, uh, and they were so mature in this, in this community that these are folks coming in who, who really only look at WordPress as a tool, right? As a way to just, I just want to build my website and I know it’s been like that forever.

Uh, but I think we’re going to see more of those folks come in. You know, with the, with the rising of, of tools like Bricks and Elementor, maybe some other page builders and themes that are out there. These are folks who aren’t like, I love WordPress in the community. They weren’t tinkering with WordPress like we were decades ago, trying to get it to do things now.

They just know a whole new world. They come in and they go, Oh, this thing does all of this awesome stuff. I don’t have to learn HTML or anything. Do you look at sort of new Do you have that sort of canvas of, of who’s using WordPress and who’s engaging in the community? 

Angela: Yeah, I, I think you’re right. Like we are seeing a rise in people who [00:15:00] are coming to us with a very specific goal in mind.

And, uh, I think that’s perfectly natural and reflective of the, of, of everyone in the world right now. Like, Yeah. Perfect. There’s a lot of things trying to compete for our attention. People seem, uh, they’re very busy all the time. And so where we spend our time matters. Um, in WordCamp surveys, we used to see that, uh, people were wanting more advanced content.

Um, people were wanting more specific things that, uh, WordCamp. Broadly, you tried to offer. And so one of the big pushes for the community team this year is to explore how we can diversify events. Um, One wonderful thing about WordPress events is that they like they are welcoming. They are inclusive. They try to bring everybody together.

Um, But it’s really hard when all of your events are trying to be everything for everybody. [00:16:00] It is, um, Uh, I don’t want to disparage honorary vets because I think they’re fantastic, but it’s really hard to be everything for everybody all the time. It’s a quick path to being, um, nothing for nobody. And so.

When we have so many events happening around the world, and we are really good at spinning them up and iterating on them, I think it’s really, it’s a really interesting question to ask, are our events delivering what they need to the work pressures of today and tomorrow? And so how can we deliver? value to everyone when time is so short for everybody.

How do we find that person who is coming to us and they need to spin up a website really quick? Do they look at a WordCamp website and say, I know exactly what I’m going to get out of this event, or are they going to go somewhere else and we lose connecting with them? And so we [00:17:00] hear people wanting to learn more about.

Security about hosting, about how to get started with WordPress, um, how to bring WordPress to schools, how to organize events in WordPress, um, how to contribute. And so those are all avenues that we can explore, um, and better connect with, uh, our audience today and tomorrow. 

Matt: One of the things so I again I’ve been covering WordPress for quite some time Matt report now the WP minute in a more formal fashion One of the most challenging things is getting people to care about the WordPress about WordPress news About like what’s happening with WordPress the WP minute sort of tries to achieve that goal by having a five minute product and having something really quick and easy that even the You know, the person who’s just she’s just using WooCommerce to sell muffins for her bakery, mom and pop shop, and there’s no way she’s going to listen to a 45 minute conversation about about WordPress, but she might tune into the WP minute for a quick five minute.

Hey, is [00:18:00] WooCommerce changing the way we handle taxes, right? And if I can just grab this quick information, you you know, trying to reach that person is a particular challenge, but so many people should care about this stuff. I just interviewed. It’s great model. 

Angela: Thanks. Yeah. 

Matt: I just interviewed a gentleman, Mark Szymanski, and he is a person who started, he’s younger than me.

Uh, I think he’s around 27, 28 years old. And he got into WordPress around 2018, started a more formal agency freelancer business around 2019. And he came in through. Um, first he came in through the Elementor tool because he was looking to build websites, found that tool as a way to do this for him more easily.

Kind of now transitioned over to, to, uh, Bricks, which is a whole different conversation. But the idea is these folks are coming in through these tools and not really getting connected with the community. He had some really interesting, uh, perspectives on like how to get involved, but he’s never been [00:19:00] to a.

a WordPress meetup, uh, never been to a WordCamp before, didn’t know about WordPress Slack, and I, you know, and we’re just, we’re just at the tip of the iceberg, right? There’s make. wordpress. org, there’s GitHub, there’s Track, like, wow, there’s so much stuff here. How do you start thinking about connecting all those points of communication that WordPress has for these individuals who just don’t know it exists?

Angela: Yeah, that’s a that’s a big question. Um, so we have the WordPress annual survey year after year, and I think the results are going to be published very soon. Um, and one trend that we see, we One question that we ask every year is, how are you, how are you learning about WordPress? And the answers have been largely consistent.

Um, people say, uh, when they, when they want to learn about something, they just look it up. And YouTube is also another, uh, very popular avenue for people to, to look up what they need. [00:20:00] And for me personally, like that, that really resonates. Um, whenever I am trying to figure out, I. I dug into obsidian and was trying to figure out how to get all of that set up.

And I was just browsing YouTube video after YouTube video. And so, you know, the training team is looking to move, um, all of their content to, to, uh, YouTube and same for WordPress, uh, event content as well. And so getting, getting content to areas where they are more likely to be surfaced is a great way we can go about that.

Still a ways off from TikTok, that does seem like a whole different, a whole different game there, um, but, uh, I don’t know, we’ll see, um, the more we can surface, the more we can meet people where they are at, the more we can help them, help bring them into our 

Matt: spaces. I want to talk about maybe the particular challenges, both interior and exterior, with the community, like people that are having challenges within the [00:21:00] community, you know, with, I don’t want, you know, trying not to point to particular incidents, but like issues with each other, uh, and then how that maybe affects the exterior.

So I’ll try to paint the picture again. When things are happening in the interior of WordPress, you and I and people listening to this kind of know it as air quotes, WP drama. It’s a phrase that I’m trying to never use again because I don’t think it does anyone any good, right? It, it creates this thing on the exterior where people who aren’t really connected to WordPress might try to use WordPress, go, Oh God, here we go again, another one.

And then it also takes away from the actual issues that, that people are having in the, in the interior, right? Cause then it just gets labeled WP drama and everybody moves on and, and. And things aren’t any better. There was stuff that was, uh, I saw you chiming in on some stuff with post status, uh, in the post status slack, and you mentioned that there’s, uh, an incident response [00:22:00] team which then maybe say, Aha!

There are things inside the community to help, maybe, with these situations. What does that look like for you? What is the incident response team? How can folks like, reach out to others in the space when they’re feeling like, there’s an issue I need help with? The 

Angela: instant response team was created towards the end of 2022.

And so it’s, it’s a relatively new working group. And the goal of the group is to, is to help with, uh, situations that go against. The code of conduct, which we, we do have, um, and the incident response team is made up of, I believe we are around 18 people right now, um, who are skilled at mediation, um, at conflict de escalation, at speaking with people and compassionately listening to what they are going through, what they experienced in the community.

And they are [00:23:00] there and ready to, to help people through things to evaluate whether something has gone against the code of conduct. And if so, what next steps we can take. And so that’s a, that’s a very high level overview of what the team does. Um, you can find us in, uh, in the Make WordPress Slack, there is a public, uh, instant response team channel.

And there’s also an email, um, I believe it’s report at word, wordpress. org is the, is the email address. If I’m, if I’m wrong about that, I will, uh, correct that in the show notes, um, that there’s also a handbook in the community contributor handbook, uh, with a very clear button saying, um, reach out to, to the instant response team.

So hopefully between all of that, we’re, we’re pretty findable, whether you are in the, uh, make WordPress Slack or not. 

Matt: And. I really start to think about, so there, with so much going on, [00:24:00] again, this is not a direct question, but it’s just lovely to hear your thoughts on this. We talk about this a lot, uh, on the podcast.

A lot of the challenges with WordPress, whether it’s these, these real It’s tough to solve human interactions or I don’t like this feature of WordPress. A lot of it is just, it’s just comes down to humans. There’s just, as we grow, there’s just so much more complexity. Do you start to see this stuff along with rising costs here, uh, rising costs of like running a WordCamp, sponsoring a WordCamp, traveling to a WordCamp.

Do you start to see, and again, mix in. Now we have to have more corp, it’s weird, like corporate, uh, infrastructure, incident response teams. We have meal planning, we have advertise, like this is just so much stuff and now this whole thing is like a corporation. Do you see maybe events getting more limited, like less WordCamps because human cost and rising costs are going up?

Like do you start to [00:25:00] project that happening for, for WordCamps and WordPress events? 

Angela: Uh, if the, if what I’m currently seeing as far as like the, the trend of events coming back, um, and the number of events that we have in the, in the queue, like people wanting to have events, um, I’m not too worried about.

The desire at least to have events, I am worried about rising costs of event venue space in particular is a huge blocker to, to having an event these days. Um, and I, I am concerned about how much it costs for people to travel to events. Uh, yeah, the cost of WordCamps is, is rising, um, as our costs around the world.

Luckily, uh, we do have really great sponsors and people who are, who are willing to help in that, in these cases, um, and it is thanks to [00:26:00] our, our sponsors funding these events that we’ve been able to keep. Keep meeting the rising costs so far, but it is something that I’m continually concerned about. There was another question that you had in there around.


Matt: like the corporation, like infrastructure, you know, now at these events, like, should there be incident response people there? And if there’s no one there to volunteer, how do you get someone there? And then you start to think of all like the logistics of this stuff for an in person event, for a largely volunteer led.


Angela: So the, the code of conduct for all of WordPress has been around since 2022, I believe that’s correct. Uh, but there was a code of conduct for all WordPress events. I don’t actually know when that was, when that came to be. Um, I joined the community in 2018 and it was already established. So prior to 2018.

And so the community team, um, back then they were called the community, [00:27:00] community deputies. Now they are the program, uh, supporters. Um, they are the ones who used to do a lot of that mediation work, um, for things that we saw at events. And instant response work is an interesting area because especially in a community that values transparency and wants to see the inner workings, um, instant response, By its nature can only be so open about its work.

There’s balance, right? Because we are working with humans and there are situations that people don’t necessarily want spread out and for everybody to look in on. And so where we can always be open is anything related to the steps that we take. And so all of this is published in our handbooks and there’s instant response training that’s available to anybody.

Who, whoever you are and wants to try it [00:28:00] out, um, we are very open about the common steps that we take whenever we, we receive a report, or even if it’s not a report, if somebody comes to us and says, like, Hey, I experienced this thing at, um, in this space, it felt weird. What can I do about it? Like there’s somebody that you can talk to.

And so I think to your question around. The corporate nature of this, uh, meeting our events, I, I also have no doubt that, um, the WordPress community is very human first. We’re very, um, we’re very human about, about how we approach things. And so when it comes to. Instant response. It really holds that same value of how are we being human about this with each other?

Um, and how are we, how are we holding people to these expectations that we’ve all agreed to when we are in this space? Um, [00:29:00] and for me, that feels, uh, less, less corporate, if you will. That feels very, that feels very. first. 

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think more along the lines of like this domino effect, like when I say corporate, I don’t, I don’t.

I don’t think you’re taking it this way, but I want people who are listening not to take it this way is like, I’m not saying it in like a, in like in a bad way, it’s just like this domino effect. As soon as you add, you know, 2000 people at an event times, you know, the, however many years we’ve been doing this plus all the word camps, it’s like as soon as you add one layer, then Oh, what about, what about this layer?

And then, okay, well if we get that layer, now there’s another layer and it’s just, it’s just a thing that happens and you know, before you know it. It’s the U. S. government. And there’s like all of this stuff everywhere. But, yeah, it’s just, it’s just what happens when, when you have such a massive project.

And I tell people this all the time. This is one of the most, the reason why I do what I do is because I think it is one of the most [00:30:00] important pieces of software on the internet, and you can’t show up to Google or Apple Slack and be like, you know, I don’t really like the way this button shows up on iOS.

Uh, here’s my thoughts. Uh, what do you all think? Like no one, you, it’s, you can’t, it’s not happening. And we should appreciate that the open source nature of WordPress, you know, as, as much as we can, you know, and I think a lot of people might punch down on it sometimes from like a, a software feature set wise, or at least recently with some of the stuff happening, but it’s like, man, you, you.

You can’t do any of this other stuff on any other platform. Find one. Yeah. 

Angela: And, yeah, and I, I really think it’s, um, while it may be uncomfortable, disagreement and it’s, uh, it’s more unpleasant cousin conflict are natural. They’re going to be a part of any community out there, um, and it’s needed and [00:31:00] how we, how we address.

Uh, conflict and how we address disagreement when it happens, um, can turn, can turn whatever it is that we’re dealing with into something really positive. And that’s, that’s pretty powerful. If you’re able to, if you’re working in a team and you are able to overcome some disagreement over time, that makes you far stronger in the long run than it does in the immediate term.

And so anytime things kick up, I really hope that. We are able to focus on the issues and work through them because I believe we can. And I also think that’s the very human approach. 

Matt: Last question here, Angelo, if somebody is standing in front of you right now and they’re brand new to WordPress and they just say, I want, I heard about this community thing.

I too want to get involved with it somehow, some way. Where’s the first place you point them to go? 

Angela: I love this question and I will [00:32:00] tell you why, uh, the, uh, mentorship program is, uh, starting again very soon here. And that’s one of the, it’s a, it’s, this is the second cohort that’s running and it pairs, uh, People who have been in the WordPress community for a very, very long time and are looking to welcome other people into our space and help them get acclimated and to point them in a contribution direction, uh, are paired with new people and.

It’s the first cohort was run towards, uh, was run last year and really successful. And so I’m, I, that’s where I would point somebody new, uh, to get them connected and to get them excited about a project of their choosing in our space. And so that’s where I would point people to. And if you are, uh, an experienced WordPresser, I would point you to joining and sharing your knowledge as a mentor there in future cohorts [00:33:00] as well.

Matt: Angela Jin, thanks for hanging out today. Where else can folks go to find you to say thanks? Hmm. 

Angela: Um, I am on, are we calling it X now? Twitter? I’m, I still say Twitter every single time, but I am Angela S JIN, J I N everywhere. And that is where you can find me. 

Matt: Awesome stuff. Everybody. Thanks for listening.

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