Inside Automattic Special Projects w/ Derek Hanson

[00:00:00]

Introduction and Welcome

Matt: Derek Hanson, welcome to the WP Minute.

Derek: Glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Matt.

Matt: I’ve seen you pop up on a lot of live streams. ~Uh, ~we’ve chatted,~ uh,~ only in live stream so far.

Derek’s Role at Automattic

Matt: And of course our LinkedIn direct messages,~ um,~ going back and forth to set this,~ uh,~ recording up your technical account manager at automatic.

I want to talk about that. ~Uh, ~what the day in the life looks like for you. You also have been creating a lot more content lately at Derek Hanson dot blog. ~Um, ~I think you’re going to start getting maybe into YouTube, your newsletter and blogging, where we’re going to unpack all of that.

Content Creation and Automattic’s Culture

Matt: I want to lead in with one of my hot topics, which,~ uh,~ I had, I think I commented on one of your LinkedIn posts or articles that I feel like,~ uh,~ there’s a lot of automaticians as of late who are creating content.

And part of my. You know, broader view of,~ um,~ analyzing automatic and in the industry is, Hey, maybe there’s like this initiative internally at automatic that, that folks were like, it’d be great if you all were content marketers, [00:01:00] because I buttoned that up against,~ um,~ something like,~ um,~ you know, Hey, there’s hot topics.

Maybe we’ll talk about it today. Wix Squarespace, these juggernauts in the ad in marketing space, really pumping lots of money. And my gut feeling was, well, maybe the automaticians love the software so much that they could be, in air quotes, they could be the marketers by using the product and publishing content and leveraging WordPress as it is.

Long way of getting to, is there an internal initiative for automaticians to create content? And if not, what’s the deal? There’s so many of you doing it lately.

Derek: Yeah, this is a great question. It there’s no like official internal initiative. ~Um, ~other than if you saw one of Matt’s recent blogs,~ um,~ maybe a few months back about the cards that automaticians get of be the host, help the hosts.

~Um, ~and, and then neutral and where I sit firmly with my team as a TAM with the special projects team, we’re in the help the host category, where it’s [00:02:00] the idea of just making WordPress better for everybody. And some of that is just sharing more what you do publicly. And I think every automatician, you know, there’s lots of people who are gifted writers and you might find some of their content.

Content,~ um,~ around with, you know, personal newsletters. ~Um, ~something that I think maybe everybody’s behind on is that YouTube side of things,~ um,~ because creating video content is a hard task. ~Um, ~as you all know, I’m sure,~ um,~ which is why, you know, we’ll get into this. I’m slow to get into it because it’s time consuming and not everybody has.

I don’t think there’s an affinity towards public facing communication like that either. ~Um, ~as I shared with you privately, I have a pretty decent background in that,~ uh,~ from previous jobs and my time working at the university I used to be a part of. So I think people. You know, tend to follow the automatic creed to just, you know, share what you do openly,~ um,~ and, and work out in the open and just give back to [00:03:00] WordPress.

And so that’s what I’ve taken on just a little bit personally as like a side quest, knowing that it’s going to better WordPress,~ um,~ and then just create a better understanding of, of, of what we’re doing.

Matt: Yeah. Like, ~Uh, ~well, there’s Mike from the Jetpack team whom I’ve,~ uh,~ spoken to a lot,~ uh,~ one on one and I know he is, you know, doing the whole YouTube thing.

I mean, he’s doing the YouTube thing for, for Jetpack, but I know he has his own, like, ~uh, ~his own blog and, like, entrepreneurship initiatives that he’s publishing and broadcasting, which is cool. And McCarthy,~ um,~ I think is doing a fantastic,~ um,~ you know, ~uh, ~unbiased middle of the road meeting the YouTubers and trying to,~ uh,~ you know, ~uh, ~have us sort of all understand.

Where this whole thing is going. It’s, it’s great to hear, because obviously, and we don’t have to get, like, I don’t want to get too deep into the weeds on this, but I still think,~ uh,~ Automatic is the best steward for open source WordPress, and,~ um,~ having a fleet of automaticians, like, using the product, I think is going to Make this whole experience better It’s a [00:04:00] battleship trying to turn or an aircraft carrier trying to turn in a tight spot A lot of folks want things to get better faster Pressures from from competition and we’ll talk about that from your perspective But I think it’s great that that the automaticians are using it and really, you know publishing their own stuff with it It’s the best way to to learn.

It’s how I learn with gravity forms every day. I’m trying something new and I’m like, you know, this doesn’t work out for the average end user like me. How can we make it better? So I think it’s a, it’s a great thing.

Day in the Life of a Technical Account Manager

Matt: What is a day in the life? technical account manager,~ uh,~ and what products specifically you said, special products or special teams, what products specifically do you, do you work with?

Derek: Yeah. So the automatic special projects team,~ um,~ which I just, I dropped you a link right before the chat. So you could share that out. ~Um, ~you can see some of the work we do, but we partner with,~ um,~ friends of automatic and we, Build and launch websites. ~Um, ~we offer a concierge service,~ uh,~ for friends of automatic and [00:05:00] we’re, our initiative really is to do what you’re saying is to use.

The software use WordPress. ~Um, ~we aim to use as many automatic products as possible to contribute back in lots of different ways, whether that’s creating custom bespoke themes,~ um,~ cool new plugins or,~ uh,~ features for the block editor,~ um,~ or just really custom solutions and the, the idea is that the day in the life of what we’re doing is we’re getting that experience, hands on experience and passing that feedback.

Back into the different products at automatic, even external third party products,~ uh,~ gravity forms is something that, you know, we still have sites using a lot because of how well developed and longstanding and powerful it’s been. And that’s, that’s really our aim and our initiative. We spend a lot of time also in just the Gutenberg,~ uh,~ GitHub repository.

~Um, ~and, you know, there’s quite a few of our developers on our team that you’ll see listed, you know, in the contributors [00:06:00] to releases,~ um,~ based on the work we do. So, ~um, ~as a TAN, the day in the life is,~ um,~ interacting and interfacing with the people that we work with. ~Um, ~so some of the sites in our, our, our catalog, I was,~ Um,~ fortunate to be a part of,~ um,~ very proud of the work that we do.

I think we produce a great showcase of WordPress,~ um,~ just out into the, into the community to show what it can do.

Friends of Automattic and Special Projects

Matt: How do you define a friend of Automatic?

Derek: Friend of Automatic,~ uh,~ a lot of times is a friend of Matt. So he’s,~ um,~ sending,~ uh,~ people,~ um,~ our direction to,~ um,~ you know, get help with their, their, their website, whether that’s,~ um,~ they’re already on WordPress and they need a facelift or they’re coming from other platforms,~ um,~ which is, you know, usually a great case study to see,~ um,~ what we can do, which, you know.

The data liberation project is something that I think we’re really keen to help contribute to, to figure out how can we make that seamless transition to and from other platforms,~ um,~ from WordPress. [00:07:00]

Matt: I have, I’ve often seen, as I’m sure most folks watching the show,~ um,~ have seen as well, like I’ve seen him interact with, you know, random folks on, on Twitter or X, you know, saying, Hey, my, Shopify is, It’s terrible or it’s too expensive or, you know, and if it’s sort of like a notable brand or maybe somebody in his inner or third,~ uh,~ degree of circles, he might say something like, hey, hop over to WordPress.

We’ll help you. ~Uh, ~I assume that’s when you get the bat signal up in the sky and then you swoop in to say, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll help now. ~Um, ~roughly if, if that’s correct, how do you, do you then,~ uh,~ facilitate, Hey, this is a wordpress. com person, or maybe this is a VIP person and you kind of help facilitate that.

Like do you analyze as you’re like, you know, that daily tasks, do you help analyze that and make the, the assessment for which product pressable even,~ um,~ to choose a little bit.

Derek: Yeah. A lot of our sites are on pressable and launching more on wordpress. com and there’s,~ um,~ You know, select few that go to VIP.

~Uh, ~thankfully I am [00:08:00] unburdened of maybe a lot of those decisions, especially like if something’s going to go to VIP, just in my role as a TAM. ~Um, ~but usually when we’re spinning up projects and I’m working with the partner, I, I will see if,~ um,~ and have a, A pretty good influence on if something should be like wordpress.

com or on pressable and,~ um,~ some projects we’re working on right now are coming to wordpress. com to take full advantage of some of those jetpack integrated features, like newsletter, like you were mentioning, Mike,~ um,~ is sharing a lot more of, and. Yeah, like I said, it’s, it’s just helping to understand really the needs of and goals of the partner, you know, not as much as like, Hey, let’s make sure we’re, you know, benefiting our platforms.

It’s, we’re providing the best experience with WordPress as we can for, for each partner we work with.

Matt: Do you have a favorite? I guess without revealing who the customer is if you don’t want to, but is there, was there a favorite sort of,~ um,~ I don’t know, win from Matt doing something like that? Like somebody you migrated from [00:09:00] Wix and you were like, Oh my God, I can’t believe they did this on Wix.

Or is there a favorite project or conversion that you’ve been a part of through this program?

Derek: Yeah,~ uh,~ what really drew me to applying for the, the role,~ um,~ was seeing like the description of the job and, and getting to build sites for people. And specifically, I’ve had a chance to work with a lot of nonprofits, which is, which is awesome.

You know, a lot of my background helped contribute to that,~ um,~ within my previous roles. And the, the ones I am most proud of are actually featured on our site. So you can share those and people can go click on, on them. And,~ um,~ one of the best ones was, and the backlog. org, which won a Webby award,~ uh,~ because of the work that we did, and that was a Drupal migration.

And you want to talk about a hard,~ uh,~ task. It’s trying to figure out how to move from Drupal to WordPress. And, you know, fortunately we have such a group of talented people to, to solve some of these [00:10:00] things. And so I was really excited about that one and, you know, interfacing and working with the partners is.

just such a pleasure. I enjoy that side of the things a lot, getting to chat with them and hear their goals and help them accomplish, you know, the mission of their either individual or organization. ~Uh, ~so, and the backlog is, is one of my favorite ones. ~Um, ~a recent, a more recent one,~ uh,~ was really, really excited about was interaction design,~ um,~ ixda.

org,~ um,~ because we really started to move into the full site editing experience,~ um,~ a lot more,~ um,~ we’re, you know, that’s almost our default, but, you know, and the backlog is a great classic theme. Experience and interaction design is a great block theme experience with a lot of really cool features, including a massive video library for all of their past events,~ um,~ and conferences.

Challenges and Insights on Data Liberation

Matt: From your, from where you stand and,~ uh,~ observe the data liberation project. I mean, you mentioned that man, imagine trying to [00:11:00] move from Drupal to WordPress. No, I can’t imagine. ~Um, uh, ~you know, Yeah, I used to be, that’s how I got started in this whole web world was really deep in Drupal way back in the day, Drupal 4 into 6, and 6 is when I actually had discovered WordPress.

But from your perspective, is it, is it, is that why data liberation seems a little bit slower? And I want to try to unpack it, if you can, if you have a perspective on it. A lot of folks that I’ve been talking to, a lot of newer folks coming into the community, they don’t really understand Like how this whole thing kind of works where here’s a broad vision from Matt and perhaps I don’t even know Yeah, I don’t I don’t claim to know the answers, but here’s this broad vision from Matt while it’s not a direct task Or like, facilitated project, it’s, it is hopeful from his vision that we need this data liberation thing, and then, you know, please go out and build it.

And there’s no deadline, timeline, no project manager around it, not yet anyway, [00:12:00] but when that sort of broad vision is, is put out, With high complexity, like if you looked at Drupal and probably even Wix and Squarespace, like how do you get this data, you know, how much data are we transferring over? Is it just pages, posts, like what other data do these CMSs hold?

Like, do you think it’s that complexity that, that data liberation is maybe, I’ll say struggling is the first word that comes to my, my head, but slow to start. Something else, like what’s your thoughts on like getting the data liberation moving?

Derek: Yeah, I think it is the complexity and maybe just the interest in devoting the time to it.

~Um, ~so having been a part of, you know, quite a few of these types of migrations and even back when I was like doing this on my own between different types of CMSs,~ um,~ and not even WordPress, there’s So many nuances to unpack about each platform to figure out how you need to map the content into your new space.

And I think one thing that maybe is a [00:13:00] little challenging from a content architecture side of things is a lot of times when you’re moving a site to a new one is you’re actually taking that opportunity to revamp, not just the design, but maybe the organization of it. So maybe you have like a set of.

Pages that you’d prefer to become custom post types. Maybe you have a set of custom post types that would fit better as default posts with maybe just different templates and formats. And that I think presents such a unique challenge because there’s so much planning involved on a per site basis that it’s not as simple as like click.

Move my site from this platform to WordPress or move my WordPress, you know, site to this other WordPress environment, because I think there’s so many changes that are taking place from a content perspective that really fits on just, like I said, just such a case by case basis. basis. It’s not really one to one.

And I think that’s, that’s the biggest challenge is it takes so much time to figure out for your [00:14:00] individual site, what the best process is that it’s not necessarily going to overlap on the next, you know, site that somebody wants to move. I think that’s one of the biggest challenges.

Community Perception and Automattic’s Vision

Matt: Realizing that you can’t speak for,~ uh,~ the whole company and, and your,~ uh,~ automatic colleagues.

~Um, ~What’s the temperature in the room for automatic when, when they sort of, this is the way that I see it and maybe you all see it differently.~ Um, ~I’m often very, you know, critical of like decisions of Matt, but I, I am right behind him with,~ uh,~ his definition of, of, of, you know, Open source WordPress, open web, like, ~uh, ~WordPress as the,~ uh,~ publishing platform first and foremost, at least as of right now, like, there’s a lot of stuff, and then I am critical on maybe some of the decision making, how it impacts individuals in the space.

Having said all that, I don’t really See the work that all automaticians do and, you know, rich and they are obviously much more public and maybe that’s just part of their roles, but I’m curious to understand like what the temperature in the room is [00:15:00] for for you all, or maybe at least from your perspective when you see the wordpress.

org community. Automatic is just doing this. Automatic is just this blanket statement. Automatic is just doing that. Automatic is making these decisions just for them. I don’t buy that. I don’t even buy that Matt’s doing it for the benefit of wordpress. com. But what’s the temperature in the room? Do you feel?

Disassociated with the org community because you are in automatic. How do you all think about that, if anything? Like, do you regularly meet about that? I would imagine there’d be one psychologist dedicated to this. At automatic. Be like, look, don’t listen to this, don’t listen to this. But, what’s your thoughts on that temperature?

Derek: I guess I,~ uh,~ And really just speak to that personally, maybe that, you know, automatic,~ uh,~ was a job that I used to maybe dream about one day when I was early on in WordPress, but I just really didn’t know what I was doing yet, but I was like, This looks like it would be, you know, the best of the best, you know, [00:16:00] working on WordPress.

And I feel like, you know, like our team specifically, I feel like I get to work on an all star team of WordPress users. And,~ um,~ the more I’ve been with Automatic, The more I just see the same conversations that you’ve noted and seen over the years. And I think it’s just like a real misconception that,~ um,~ everything that’s trying to happen is maybe for the benefit of automatic when really, I think we’re all after the same thing.

We’re trying to benefit and grow WordPress. And. I think you’ve done a really great job of communicating that,~ uh,~ to your audience,~ uh,~ which is why I’ve really enjoyed, you know, watching your,~ um,~ watching and listening to your shows. ~Uh, ~so I, I think that maybe the temperature of the room, like myself personally is like, it’s, it’s hard to navigate the negative sentiment a little bit.

I spend probably more time in like The broader. org community than maybe most automaticians, like I said, because it’s, it’s a tough space to interact with on a [00:17:00] daily or weekly basis. ~Um, ~because it’s, you have to sort of like have that, you know, multi persona, I guess is one way to think about it. And So I, I try to be really conscious about, you know, jumping into conversations to not, you know, be defensive,~ um,~ but also be open and listening.

I think that’s why Anne has done such a tremendous job,~ um,~ which you were a part of that last,~ um,~ YouTuber Uniting WordPress and even back with the FSC Outreach Program. ~Um, ~I think Sitting back and listening to the people who use WordPress on a daily basis is one of the things I try to do on a more consistent basis, which is why it’s like, well, I’m having a hard time jumping into creating the content because I’m still trying to just be in listening mode and hear, you know, what people think and what the perspectives are, because WordPress services.

Too many different users,~ uh,~ which is what makes things extremely [00:18:00] challenging,~ uh,~ to know from a vision standpoint, like what the best path is. And I’m far removed from, you know, what that is. So I try to just stay sort of within what I know and where I can contribute. And. I think that’s, that’s the best that we can do.

And I feel like, you know, Automattic’s not the only organization like that. I, you know, WP Engine and 10Up, I think do a fantastic job of, you know, supporting WordPress as the project itself. And,~ um,~ it’d be, it’d be nice to see maybe the perspective. You know, of automatic to shift a little bit in a more positive light, you know, like some of these other, you know, agencies,~ um,~ and hosts that are also, you know, we’re all after the same thing just to make WordPress better for everybody.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, we don’t have to get into it, but I, I think obviously the tricky thing is just the, the brand of WordPress. Is mixed, right? So immediately, you know, it’s, it’s going to be a very [00:19:00] difficult,~ uh,~ debate or discussion, especially from, from, you know, from the uninitiated that come into the space or the newbies that come into the space and they just, I mean, just as you would, like if you knew nothing and you were like, Oh, there’s wait, these guys are charging for WordPress, but there’s free WordPress over here and, and they want me to make this better.

And, but they’re making it better over there and they’re charging money. Like the initial, like that super, like. tip of the iceberg thing that people come into the space that just, just don’t know. It’s very easy to fall into that. And hey, you know, it’s the, that’s the muddy area of the branding of WordPress.

Derek’s Journey as a Content Creator

Matt: Um, let’s talk about Derek, the creator. ~Um, ~what are your goals as a creator to even like that word, a content creator, you know, podcaster, blogger, newsletter, writer, YouTuber, like what do you label yourself if you do? And, and what’s the vision for the content that you’re putting out?

Derek: So I think the vision is,~ um,~ I’ve always had an affinity to be in like teaching mode and you know, that was my [00:20:00] previous pathway.

Like I’m going to be a professor and teach communication and the, you know, I had an opportunity to be a part of building a multi site WordPress. E portfolio initiative at the university. So I like total, that’s how I got started in WordPress and I really gravitated into that and I was teaching WordPress to professors and students,~ um,~ and, and other colleagues.

And I think that’s, you know, what I’m really looking to do is just bring that sort of teaching experience. And sharing, you know, how to do things. But I think also my other background is in rhetoric. And,~ um,~ I like to look at strategy for website projects and, you know, maybe not even as much the technical side of things.

So I think the conversation around what it means to have a website. is probably something I feel like I want to bring more into the conversations and less of the [00:21:00] like, here’s how you push buttons to do things and, and recreate stuff, which I think I want to do some of that. ~Um, ~I want to show like, okay, this is how you accomplish a goal.

This is, you know, aspirational,~ uh,~ like here’s an amazing site. Let’s see if we can redo it, rebuild it. ~Um, ~but then find ways to bring sort of the experience of understanding. The before you make a website part. And I think that’s maybe a missing component. I hear a lot of conversations about like users and what that means.

And I think that’s a whole nother skillset that is not about like, here’s how you make a website. It’s here’s how you think about who you’re making your website for. ~Um, ~which I think is. part of the conversation that was just had with Ann about who is WordPress for and the philosophy. And, you know, that became like a point of, you know, major conversation in that previous call.

And that’s where I’m leaning towards a little bit is trying to define like what a user [00:22:00] really is, because they’re, they’re so vast and so varied and the people that, you know, we interact with on a daily basis. And you do certainly as WordPress creators or content creators, You know, your audience is very similar people, people building websites for other people and.

There’s a whole host of people that are entering, like you said, it’s confusing to get into WordPress for some people, cause they don’t know the difference between wordpress. com and, and wordpress. org, but then also like, you know, GoDaddy or Hostinger and, you know, all the other platforms that are WordPress that you might not actually know.

Our WordPress and there’s even niches. I was a part of a,~ uh,~ a church website building platform that was all WordPress, but it was their white label take on it. So it was a completely unique and different experience. So nobody really knew who was coming in, like, because the goal is. I need a website for my church, right?

Nobody’s like, I [00:23:00] want to work, you know, use WordPress. I, and I think maybe that’s where, you know, stepping back and coming more from a high level. I think that’s what I’m hoping to bring to people.

Matt: Do you, this was a debate that,~ uh,~ Mark Szymanski and I had short, very short debate. ~Um, ~You know, when we analyze a lot of the vocal folks that are, you know, web professionals building websites looking for, you know, an improved site building experience, advanced workflows, et cetera, et cetera.

~Um, ~you know, Kevin Geary comes to mind, this very opinionated and,~ uh,~ strong approach on,~ uh,~ you know, of course, the evolution of WordPress, but he’s obviously a very skilled CSS. Person has automatic CSS. I say, Hey, this is great that you’re that passionate about it, but we’re banging on the wrong drum because in my opinion, the essence of WordPress is for publishing words.

As an individual on the web, yes, you can build a website from it because that’s like when I say a website, I mean, like a [00:24:00] traditional, like homepage pages, business, et cetera, not, not that you couldn’t do that as a blogger, but traditionally publishing words is a stream of, of blog posts. Let’s say,~ um,~ I think that the essence of it is again, publishing those words.

And I think one of the smarter things that. Automatic could do or Matt could do to preserve that and maybe make it more visible. Is it just a theory crafting here? You let me know what your thoughts are, is To be able to combat against social media, disappearing content, content, that’s,~ uh,~ you know, you’re putting out content into all these social platforms and they’re just monetizing it, throwing into an algo, serving you ads, selling your data, WordPress could just have a free.

I know they have the free domains like the subdomains, but to flip it from a vanity perspective, like you could get a free wp. com slash Matt Medeiros. And that could be my, that could be my blog, right? Shift that perspective [00:25:00] on what publishing is,~ um,~ and how folks can access it. And even it’s like a vanilla WordPress install that you can’t change the theme and it’s just for books.

Posting, like you log in and it’s just posting blog posts. Just to get people to realize, oh yeah, like this is my, this is like logging into Twitter or logging into Facebook and making a post. But you own it, and then you get to share that natural progression. This is a long convoluted way of getting to like, I think the essence of WordPress is for publishing words that then makes this natural evolution into building a website as one progresses on the web with either their identity or their career.

~Um, ~and that’s why we have what we have with WordPress. True, false, something in between. What are your thoughts?

Derek: Yeah, I, I think you align with a vision that I’ve had for a while. Just like, you know, personally that,~ um,~ one thing that I’ve spent more time looking at is Substack,~ um,~ because No, a lot of, a lot of writers [00:26:00] outgrow Substack and then they’re ready for something like WordPress.

~Um, ~but there’s that entry point, which I think you just spoke to. It’s like, I just log in and I write what I want and it’s published and it’s out there. And I think that’s, that’s something that. If you’ve gone through any of the wordpress. com, you know, onboarding flows, I think there’s something to, you know, work people into that direction.

And I think what you brought up is a really interesting and unique use case. ~Um, ~but something I think that does align with the vision of also data liberation. There’s a series right now of the Fediverse files on YouTube for wordpress. com. And. That concept of WordPress being your, you know, your hub and the spoke going out to other platforms,~ uh,~ where, you know, that’s what I’ve been doing a lot with my blog, I’m writing on my blog on WordPress and it’s auto publishing to LinkedIn.

~Uh, ~so I get to own my content where I [00:27:00] want to own it, but I can have it go out to the other, you know, areas and have the conversations where you want to. ~Um, ~and I, so I think. That concept is there and maybe it’s just a matter of re imagining it to have a more curated experience and like quicker and easier pathway to get into the publishing.

~Um, ~Which, which I wholeheartedly agree with, like, you know, democratize publishing. That’s like the thing that I’m always coming back to is like one of the best missions that you can think of, especially coming from an academic background where there’s so many gatekeepers to publishing content that, you know, if you want to be in a free thought.

You know, society and space, you know, WordPress is one of the leading ways to, to kind of combat that.

Matt: Yeah. I don’t know of any other way. I mean, I know of all like the CMSs, but I mean, just like from a pure, I want to be a blogger and get words out. ~Um, ~you know, I don’t know anything better than WordPress.

[00:28:00] Obviously, but I’ve been doing it for whatever, nearly 20 years, the,~ um, uh, ~and the WP minute happily runs the activity pub plugin, right? So that, you know, that helps, that helps publish content to, you know, Macedon. But,~ um,~ I would love, I have comments disabled, just get into the weeds, but I have comments disabled just because largely I didn’t want to deal with like spam comments and stuff like that.

~Um, ~yeah. But the, you know, that, that, that ability to have like, you know, your content going out to all of these different social platforms. Now, of course, they all have to support it. But if you have like a network like Macedon,~ um,~ folks could just comment where they are. And that comment would show up on my blog post, you know, if, if, if they’re in an activity at pub enabled,~ um,~ space.

And I spent a lot of time, In the open source podcasting spaces as well with podcasting 2. 0 activity pub is huge there. There’s lots of apps making strides,~ uh,~ podcast. We would love to have,~ uh,~ activity pub enabled,~ uh,~ you know, for the other division of automatic. ~Um, ~that would be really great. ~Um, ~But I want, you mentioned sub stack and you said that a lot of folks sort of outgrow that platform and largely just as people listening, like, why do they [00:29:00] outgrow that stack?

Probably because they hit some kind of limitation. Like once your air quotes business is moving with sub stack, you start to realize like, Oh, I, I’d love to actually control the experience. Now I’d love to have a landing page or these other product pages. And I need to do my things that, that to really accelerate this business.

And that’s where those platforms really cap out. Yeah. ~Um, ~I have a,~ uh,~ paid wordpress. com account,~ uh,~ thepodcastsetup. com, where I analyze the podcast industry just like I do with the WP Minute. And I came from Ghost, and I originally When I started this concept of the podcast setup, because the originally I was like, I’ll just spin up a WordPress site.

It’s like, no, no, I need to, I want to bring, I personally want to branch out and try something else. Yeah. And just like you said about sub stack ghost is pretty great. Another open source platform. I was on their hosted version, but man, you really hit that. Like as much as we, Myself included really criticize the, the UI and UX of Gutenberg and WordPress and like navigation systems.

You, you can’t even, that [00:30:00] doesn’t even exist in ghost land. Yeah. Like when I’m, when I’m in ghost land, I was like, Oh yeah, like I just want to put a call to action button or there’s a call to action button on this theme. Let me just go change it. Wait, I don’t have access to it. Like there’s no, there’s no, There’s no site editor, you know, as painful as it might be here.

I don’t even get that on Ghost. And now I’m, I’m reading, you know, cracking open a code editor, running a local version and committing it to, I don’t have, I don’t have time for it. I could figure it out. I certainly don’t have time for it. And those were the limitations I really started to bump up against with Ghost.

And then I went to wordpress. com because then I was like, I want to try the wordpress. com experience. So this is a whole long way of getting to what’s it like for, for Derek, when you’re publishing content and you want features because what I’m found as somebody who publishes that newsletter for podcasting on.

com, it is just still vanilla WordPress and that experience of a sub stack and a ghost is what is missing for [00:31:00] that demographic of user for that type of user. Like what I liked about ghost is I could log in. Hey, there’s my newsletter. Like, immediately, you just see it. Newsletter subscribers going up and to the right.

~Uh, ~income coming in from, you know, donations and membership plans. Like, the experience is just in your face. You’re a writer, a newsletter,~ uh,~ publisher. And this is the experience. WordPress is is here’s the WordPress dashboard, find the stuff. And I’m like, and, and, and also sign up for this free domain. I don’t need a free domain.

I have a domain already. Let’s get that out of there. But where’s that experience. So how, how do you relay those same kind of pain points, if at all?

Derek: I mean, I think you’re speaking to just the WordPress admin experience, right? Which is just a, a, a big conversation and has been for a long time. And, but it seems to really be picking up more steam.

And I think I, I take the approach, just every other WordPress user does,~ um,~ which you demonstrated. You submitted a GitHub [00:32:00] issue to Gutenberg and Brian courts picked it up, submitted a PR, it got into a release. And I did the same thing just this past week. I, I want to be able to upload a featured image to categories and tags.

And I’m like, I searched around the Gutenberg repo. I didn’t see anything. ~Um, ~no conversations on like, I’m going to create an issue with this vision and let the community, you know, figure it out from there. ~Um, ~and, and I think that’s, you know, typically what I try to do. ~Um, ~you know, maybe there’s like the insider side of things where.

having the benefit of being within automatic and then talking to the product teams,~ uh,~ you know, like Jetpack and WordPress. com who are building the newsletter features. ~Um, ~I, you know, that’s, that’s where we’ll get laid maybe a little bit more like, you know, into the like insider side of things that I don’t want to go into those at all, but,~ um,~ I give feedback and because we’re using it just in the same way you are.

So it’s not necessarily a guarantee that anything’s going to be picked up. ~Um, ~but I think [00:33:00] what you’re speaking to,~ um,~ is what over time has been addressed by the newsletter sort of as a product for jetpack and,~ um,~ And wordpress. com,~ uh,~ with the release of the letter theme and then some of the new features that are, you know, showing up in there for like, you know, the pop up subscribe modal,~ um,~ and the paywall block.

So I think, I think it’s all trending in the direction that you’re, you’re asking. ~Um, ~but the admin experience is a totally different thing to unlock, right? Because you have to be able to fit so much.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I know it, I know we’re moving towards new admin experience,~ um,~ which I’ve showcased on the channel before about like posts and pages.

Yeah. ~Um, ~And it’s going to escape me right now, but I, I thought there was a whole initiative to make the admin experience a lot more modular, unless that was more pie in the sky, but I, you know, I don’t, I don’t know. And, and the admin experience is something that I thought would have been [00:34:00] tackled by this point, like 2024, like when we were complaining about it in 2018, I was like, well, by 2025 or four, we’ll have something new.

Like we should be there, you know, here we are still not there because I think that’s where you really get to unlock those onboarding experiences. ~Um, ~that a lot of folks complain about,~ um,~ you know, or, or that are sorely needed because then you can onboard. I’m an e commerce store, I’m a blogger, I’m a newsletter publisher, and I just want to get to that.

And I only want to see that, right? And I think that that’s how you can, you can win against the social media game to a degree if, if, if it was just super slimmed down and you say, Hey man, you own this con, like this is your bucket of stuff on the web. Right? You have your bucket of stuff over on TikTok, but it goes away.

~Uh, ~and you don’t, you can’t do anything with it. But you have your bucket of stuff over here, under your own domain or wp. com slash whatever, and, and you own it. And,~ uh,~ you know, that I think helps, you know, trend that whole thing. You know, [00:35:00] owning content and then leveling up your website in the future. I don’t know.

I think

Derek: that’s the most challenging part of just like WordPress from a philosophy standpoint, right? I think Aaron was really alluding to that on the call that we all had with Anne is that what is the. The version of WordPress that is the foundation that other people can innovate on top of. Right. And I think that’s, that’s the tension is how to, how does WordPress allow for innovation and for people to create experiences and, and benefit from them,~ um,~ in a really positive and meaningful way.

~Uh, ~I think, you know, Mike McAllister with Oli pro,~ uh,~ and that You know, curated onboarding experience that he’s built into that theme is, is incredible. And I think if you know, WordPress, you know, takes that on, then you lose that type of innovation,~ um,~ where people can create, you know, all kinds of unique experiences.

You know, like you said, [00:36:00] like, you know, I podcast, you know, like, you know, there might be a totally different version of WordPress. that a host might want to bring, you know, to the table to offer out to a real, you know, interesting niche. ~Um, ~so I, I think that’s where I try to like step back and look at WordPress from, you know, my outsider perspective is how, you know, how do you balance bringing things into core and allowing for innovation or for people to grow?

The Future of WordPress and Themes

Derek: You know, their own business and provide services to others

Matt: on your recent blog post at Derek Hanson dot blog, recent notes on what I’m working on. You said you hint at there’s a,~ uh,~ a facelift coming,~ um,~ and that you’ll break it down. What, what, give us a hint. Like, what are you, are you choosing a new theme or are you, or can you talk about it?

Like, what are you, what are the hints that you got going on?

Derek: One of, one of my longer posts on my blog and like earlier ones is me actually building the current theme, which was. Trying to rebuild a [00:37:00] default theme,~ uh,~ 2017. And this was actually early on. ~Uh, ~I think it was even before create block theme. It was just like the early on days of the site editor.

And I’m like, I had a, I had a real kind of nostalgic feeling of that theme. Cause when I was doing it. Teaching it to students. It was the default theme at the time. So every new WordPress install students were using 2017 and I was teaching how to use it and I was like, I want to learn the site editor in its early days.

I’m going to rebuild the theme. So the facelift is I want to rebuild the site. And I want to take people on that journey in a very similar way that I did,~ um,~ with that post about rebuilding it, but, you know, make it more video centric. ~Um, ~so, well, I don’t have a great vision for the total outcome yet, other than I’m very much inspired by, again, you know, my history and visual rhetoric,~ uh,~ Edward Tufte,~ um,~ and Tufte CSS.

Very clean, minimal,~ um,~ find a way to [00:38:00] bring a new, bring a facelift to the site,~ uh,~ but take people on, on the journey. I

Matt: promise. No, I promised, you know, hot seat questions, but I do have a hot seat question as we wrap up here. ~Um, ~I, and I just saw this comment,~ uh,~ come through on my channel from a viewer and they asked, should I, and it was on my 20,~ uh,~ Talking about the 2025 theme upcoming and they said, is there any reason why I should use this theme over?

Maybe I think he posted like cadence or whatever like other pro themes or whatever And this is something that I’ve always been challenged with and I’m hoping for your thoughts on this is we give up on these default Themes, I think too quickly for WordPress Where you know, there’s all these feet like a new theme comes and then you know WordPress is constantly iterating and evolving Gutenberg’s getting better So you start to see like, oh you know, new theme comes out six months later.

There’s like this cool new feature that actually, Oh yeah, this looks great with this default theme. And then we only have like a short few months after that. And there’s already this new theme coming out, you know? And it’s just like it, that I think is [00:39:00] a challenging aspect of WordPress to get people on board because there’s, there’s, there’s no stability in that in my opinion, right?

Because you launch a site, you get committed to this site. And then suddenly you’re like, wait, WordPress is rolling. Hey, cause a lot of people think this is a new version. Like they think that. Oh, like there’s a new version of WordPress. It’s this theme. Should I be using this? And I think that there should be a core theme.

This is the question. I think there should be a core theme that is just evolved. ~Um, ~and I, I understand they want to, they want to, they want to flex the muscle of design and, and, and flexibility, but, I think there should be like this core theme and then you can adopt these yearly themes or these annual themes if you want.

So that’s the question, what are your thoughts? Do you, do we keep these default themes around a little bit longer? Do you have a perspective on that?

Derek: Yeah, you know, one of the past, state of the words,~ uh,~ I remember, and I don’t know if you recall this,~ uh,~ Matt saying like, maybe there will only be [00:40:00] one theme, right?

You know, because of the site editor, you can make any theme you want, really. Like that’s, you know, that’s the direction that, you know, Gutenberg and the site editor are heading. And I’ve just thinking about, been thinking about this personally over the, you know, last, you know, year or two. Is what is the value offered by themes in general in the future going forward?

And I think your video I was just watching about patterns. I think that’s it. I think, I think patterns and designs are the new thing to offer through themes because really like themes are going to be working a lot in the same way, but there’s going to be some nuances to. You know, to like, you know, the, the core code of the theme, like theme dot Jason, that maybe, you know, you can’t do on the site editor yet, you know, such as, you know, different hover styles or block styles or group styles.

So I think there’s going to be a, just from my perspective on just themes in [00:41:00] general, not just the, the default theme,~ um,~ is that bringing new patterns and new ways to use the site through design. Is probably the, the future of WordPress themes and have, you know, maybe, maybe in the future, each new iteration of the default theme is just going to shift in how it’s communicated.

Right. ~Um, ~because I, you’re right. Like, you know, there’s so many past versions of default themes that you might still really enjoy and you like the design of it. ~Um, ~so. And like we talked about earlier, it’s hard to change a site, right. To pick a new design and, and go with something different.

Matt: Yeah, for sure.

Conclusion and Farewell

Matt: Derek Hanson. He’s a technical account manager at automatic and he’s creating his own content at Derek Hanson dot blog. Derek,~ uh,~ thanks for hanging out today.

Derek: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it, Matt.